I've read about a lot of discussions about the pros and cons about Hybrid Cars.

From wikipedia:
Benefits:

• Reducing wasted energy during idle/low output, generally by turning the internal combustion engine off
• Recapturing waste energy (i.e. regenerative braking)
• Reducing the size and power of the ICE engine, and hence inefficiencies from under-utilization, by using the better torque response of electric motors to compensate for the loss in peak power output from the smaller internal combustion engine.
• The internal-combustion engine in a hybrid vehicle is smaller, lighter, and more efficient than the one in a conventional vehicle, because the combustion engine can be sized for slightly above average power demand rather than peak power demand. A standard combustion engine is required to operate over a range of speed and power, yet its highest efficiency is in a narrow range of operation—in a hybrid vehicle, the combustion engine operates within its range of highest efficiency. The power curve of electric motors is better suited to variable speeds and can provide substantially greater torque at low speeds compared with internal-combustion engines.
• Reduced pollution

Drawbacks:

• Hybrid vehicles are more expensive
• The trade-off between higher initial cost and lower fuel costs (often referred to as the payback period) is dependent on usage - miles traveled, or hours of operation, and fuel costs.
• Hybrid cars pollute more when you manufacture them
• Not much more on Wikipedia, actually, but other sites may have more data.

What do you guys think about Hybrid cars? Will they help reduce America's dependence on foreign oil, and are they a good alternative to purchasing a regular car?

Everything has their ups and downs

how does manufacturing it pollute?

It gives of gases from the factories. It's the same thing with Ethonal. You can't get piplines all over the country, and trucking it from place to place just admits gases aswell.

Like any technology, it takes several years to really become practical. However, we've seen huge improvements since the introduction of the Honda Insight and Toyota Prius. These cars are just as practical day-to-day as any other car on the market, they have enough power for the daily commute, and the prices are reasonable. Give it another ten years and they will be superior alternatives.

What I think is the thing limiting hybrid vehicles now isn't actually how well they're built, but the denial in society. It's no question that the United States is the largest user of automobiles in the world. But the problem with Americans is that they want cars running on fossil fuels. It feels more patriotic to the common American. I don't want to come off as being unpatriotic or anything, but our view of hybrid vehicles is drastically different from those in say Japan or Germany. Just look at the sales and development comparisons for these nations.

However, in the long run, if adopted by Americans, hybrid vehicles will indeed reduce our dependency on crude oil, there's no doubt about it. More units sold will equal lower production costs, as well as development of more efficient and cleaner methods of production. And as time goes on, the technology implemented in the vehicles themselves can only improve.

However, other power sources such as hydrogen, et cetera can't be left out.

Hybrid cars are barely eco-friendly. Everybody always goes around and says "I have a hybrid car I pollute less LOLLLOLOLO" but have you ever thought where the electricity to power their batteries came from? Unless your're living near an electric dam, solar power plant, wind power plant, or nuclear power plant (quite rare actually), then you're just taking a longer route to get your energy. Keep in mind that probably makes it less efficient. The cars do cost less to operate though.

Erm, I think you're talking about electric cars. We're talking about gasoline/electric hybrids, the large majority of which don't get any energy from any source but gasoline.

Two main ways that the electric motor helps out:
1. It reabsorbs and uses some of the energy released when braking or going downhill. This is a huge improvement in efficiency, especially in city traffic.
2. It allows the combustion engine to operate more in the range where it is most efficient by dividing its work with the electric engine.

And besides, coal power plants (~48%) are much more efficient than cars' combustion engines (~30%).
http://www.auto-ware.com/combust_bytes/eng_sci.htm

Sheesh, djbob. That was worse than Oratz's argument that carbon dioxide stops heat transfer both ways equally.

lmao, BULL, SHIT. Most of the eletricity here comes from hydro-electric dams. And in Europe, most of the power comes from wind, since they have so many fields. The United Kingdom, the Alps region, and Germany in particular have adopted wind power on a massive scale. By this time, the cost it cost to install them in the first place has already been earned back. Are you stuck in the seventies or something?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sources...US_2005_New.png
If by "here," you mean the U.S...

By "here", I mean Christmas for the Jews in the northwest.

aw come on guys... what are you thinking? In order for ethanol and electric cars to be efficient we need to have major reforms in the government and cultural thinking. As far as ethanol: the ethanol used to power cars is generally made from fermented corn. Because of this sudden increase in demand for corn, we are starting to have a corn shortage (now that it is being used for fuel, cooking oil, livestock feed, human feed, etc.) However, this corn shortage is not because of a lack of farms, but rather because of a lack of farms actually growing corn. why? because the government pays millions of dollars a year (if not billions, i cant remember the exact figures) to farmers accross the country to keep them from raising corn or other products. The total area of all the farmland whos owners are being paid not to do anything with is aproxamately the size of washington state. Why does the government pay them? well apparently there was a period of time several years ago where there was basically an overproduction of corn and other farm products, so the goverment paid farmers not to raise them in order to keep the economy in check (supply and demand and fun things like that). Unfortunately, its going to take a lot of work to get the government to stop doing this and get the "farmers" (many of whom are simply rich people who happen to own no-farm land) to give up their free money and go back to work.
Because of this corn shortage, the cost of corn and therefore ethanol will likely go up, causing the fueling of your fancy new ethanol powered car to go up drastically...
Then comes the problems of electricity... like djbob said, it has to come from somewhere... Although Myscrnnm was partially correct in saying that most of the electricity here comes from hydro-electric dams, here is limited only to the northwest. In the united states, the primary source of electricity is still fossil fuels, and that by far. And maybe there are places in europe who have reformed their electricity to be mostly from wind, but thats Europe and not only do we not use their electricity, but they dont drive nearly as much as we do. In fact, Europe has generally more efficient public transportation systems which are much more used than the primitive ones we have in the US (at least in the seattle area, i know that new york has better ones). They also walk places much more than we do, and dont have nearly the obsession with size and consumerism that americans do (i was in spain for 10 days and hardly saw a fraction of the number of large vehicles that i see in the US). A better way to save our dependancy on oil would be to redo the transportation system so it was more efficient, easier to use, and actually went to more of the places we need to go... and then make over the american culture so there isnt such and emphasis on having a big car and showing it off... yeah, that will take a long time and a lot of work, if it can ever happen.
Ok that was a bit of a tangent but back to my first point: we still use primarily fossil fuels for electricity. To try to change to wind power or other alternative energy sources would require the installation of systems, which would cost money. The money has to come from somewhere: likely taxes would be raised (unless we could eliminate the corruption of our governenment and take the money that is being spent where it shouldnt be and use it for this, that would probably get enough too). Of course, taxes would be the easier answer, and so we would all start having to pay more, and even after the renovations have paid for themselves, everyone would still probably be paying the taxes thanks to all the work it would take to remove them (and all the other places where the money is needed...) Knowing this, the american population probably wouldnt very much want for their taxes to be increased... which thus shows that we will be dependant on fossil fuels for quite a while yet.
So thats what i think. The new cars will never work. Maybe they'll save some money for individual users, but unless those of you who think they can make a difference can convince the government to change, and convince the people in the united states to change, nothing will. I wish you luck. Meanwhile I am going to move to Spain and enjoy their amazing subway system...
Adios, amigos
*note: I am not actually moving to spain and i do not actually dislike hybrid cars. Actually, i want one, and also hope to have some contribution into the world of alternative fuels (oh no im taking on other peoples dreams again...) However, since many of you were complaining there wasnt enough contreversy around here, i figured i would create some... but in the logical fasion that i usually use, not just disagreeing and throwing out some BS. All my points in here are researched (well, stuff i've picked up in my massive amounts of reading news stuff), although specific details are likely inaccurate. Basically: have at it guys, ive created contreversy, now prove me wrong.

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holy cow i just wrote an essay

How about you all give me a few million dollars when i get out of college in 4 or 5 years and I'll fix it, Biodiesel for the win:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algaculture
http://www.oilgae.com/
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/...rsity_of_n.html
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Bio..._from_Algae_Oil

Diesel cars are already more efficient than there gas counterparts, I know someone with a VW Jetta TDI who gets 45 mpg. I'm looking at older versions of the car, not TDI, that can get over 60, which is better than a Prius! Also, Biodiesel would be much easier to implement because we can use existing ways of getting the fuel to the cars, unlike hydrogen where a whole new infrastructure is required to make it viable, which will cost Billions. The algae can be grown in all sorts of places, including the desert, and can be fertalized with waste water, a readily available resource.

yes, good point... but where does the money to start a farm come from?

Uhm, reabsorbing brake energy has nothing to do with the motor. It exists in a bunch of non-hybrid cars.

OK, anybody have a figure on how much that saves? My guess is that it's not much.

Not when you facter in the distance the energy from the coal plants travel.

You have any statisticts or sources for that? My guess is that if you weren't making crap up you'd actually cite a reliable source.

Biodiesel is very inefficient.

I don't see you citing any of your shit. So by that logic, everything you say is also bullshit.

Hmm. I thought it was just that the price was rising because of the increased demand. Now that corn is being used as fuel, it costs as much as it would be worth as fuel, no matter what it's actually being used for.

Huh? Wouldn't it make much more sense to let free market dynamics (supply and demand) sort it out by itself? If there's too much corn, the corn is worth less, and so the farmers stop growing it. What's your source, eh?

Eh, did you read my response?

Amen!

Acknowledged.

I know.... Maybe you could get extra credit for it.

Then explain how the Prius is unique in having a city MPG rating that's actually higher than its highway MPG rating? And all hybrid cars generally have higher city to highway MPG ratios.

It could be the difference between 25% and 35% thermal efficiency. That's a 40% increase.
http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/prius-curves.gif

Average 7.2% loss (1995) when electricity is delivered through the electric grid. The coal power plant meanwhile is over 50% more efficient. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_powe...smission#Losses

price is rising because the increased demand can't be met by current supply, thats how supply and demand works, isnt it?

Maybe it would make some sense, but if there is far too much corn, and the price goes too low, the farmers will basically have to give it away to sell it... same deal with government subsidzed food that goes to some schools and the military (dont know if this is still the case, but i know people who would get that food) that the goverment will buy out large amounts of products to reduce the supply in order to keep the economy going. If stuff gets worth too little, the economy would stop short. (and i dont know why the farmers dont just stop but probably because its there only method of livelyhood and so in order to stop they lose their income, however little)
My source on this would be an article in Readers Digest a few months back, dont remember exactly when. Anyways, i didnt get it off of some seedy website so im pretty sure its qualified information...


sorta... um i didnt read the wiki article, i guess i should...


yay someone agrees with one of my points!

now let me go procrastinate and read that wiki article...

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ok, point taken... Main resource is coal...
doesnt coal count as a fossil fuel?
Either way, its not hydro electric, and its not a renewable resource.

Aghh I had a nice little reply typed up and then the battery fell out of my laptop. Ah well. No time to make another one now. EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) due Wednesday, and Final Presentation for history/language due tomorrow.

i look forward to your nice little reply and you fixing your laptop battery so it doenst fall out again.

Responding to Mynck's point about letting free markets control the price of corn, it would work, except that the market cannot adapt quickly enough because of the seasonal nature of corn. Because it would take at least a year or more for farmers to adapt, and falling demand for corn-growing land makes it harder for the corn farmers to cash out and move to another business, it means that a lot of corn farmers would go into poverty, creating a recession or even a depression, like the recent tech bubble burst. However, the major difference is that it is much easier to relocate and switch jobs from the tech industry into another, than moving away from farmland and getting a job in something else.

Because the ICE in a conventional car must reach higher peak horsepower and torque to allow for acceleration at highway speeds, the entire engine's efficiency must suffer. Because the electric engine is most efficient at low speeds, where the internal combustion engine is very inefficient, the hybrid car design will allow the electric engine to drive the car at low speeds, where the electric engine is most efficient due to the high amounts of torque it generates.

However, due to the availability of corn, people should just buy it at the supermarket and grow it in their own back yards. I mean, it's been done for years with tomatoes, strawberries, and the like.

Research has shown that corn takes more energy than it gives.

what reasearch?

... i forgot what side im on...

The research Ms. Marsh brought in that one time. Uhm... myncknm, confirm that there was research (he's in the same class)

ok so what side am i on?

You're on the side with the free cupcakes

Then we should just use veggie oil. McDonalds produces tons of it, and they just throw it away.

It said that the energy taken to grow and process corn is about 75% of its yield.

Not bad. But dude, BIODIESEL, motherfucker.

mmm cupcakes...
one of my friends senior project is to run his car on biodiesel... hes planning on useing like leftover mcdonalds oil, I hear it works pretty well for fuel

Excellent idea, but I'm not sure it's enough for all of the world's energy needs.

And then it mentioned something about the unfeasonability of that many corn fields. Only like 2% of the surface is arable, 'ya know.

Its excellent for fuel. Great fuel economy and nowhere near the emissions of real diesel.

When did I say anything about "all of the world's energy needs"? Again, you are making mindless assumptions. Biodiesel is an extremely viable option for use in automobiles in the United States.

uh oh myscrnnm actually posted without insulting me....
ya biodiesel is good... and who says it needs to encompass the whole world? it just needs to be able to take over a signifigant amount of the fossil fuel/coal useage

djbob.

I am merely noting that another energy source must be developed, considering that your solution does not adequately fulfill the world's needs.

Uhm... the growing problem of fossil fuel overuse? Some energy source (or combination of energy sources) is going to have to replace fossil fuels in the long run.

My prediction? Fusion power.

Can't argue with that. One problem though. It increases entropy, speeding up the universe's progression to its eventual heat death.

We are talking about automobiles here, not the grand source of energy.

ok... Automobiles... um...
I drive a volvo

Volvos, very safe cars. They invented the three-point safety belt. Pwnz Ford.

ya cept ford owns volvo now or something wierd like that...

No, it doesn't. Volvo owns itself, and Mack.

i just remember somehting about how right after we bought the volvo (several years ago) something happened so that we still were kinda getting a ford...
maybe they just considered it tho

lmao, highly unlikely. Companies like Volvo will never be bought out. Companies like Volvo, Mercedes-Benz, Honda, et cetera. They all have something in common. They are all the largest innovators, so they will never be bought out.

yeah i dont know. I was young and naive.

Oh shit, wtf, you were right. Volvo was bought by Ford in 1999!!!ONE!1!! Guess they were being pussies. But I guess it makes sense:

Volvo = Swedish
Swedish = Saab
Saab = Ford

Therefore, Volvo = Ford

QED

dang my memories better than i expected...

the car of the future is like the Honda Insight. It's got the quality, the economy, and the convenience in mind.

Sorry to necromance but heres what i read:
Studies show that adopting a vegan diet can actually be better for the environment than driving a hybrid car.
This is because it reduces the need for livestock which produce harmful methane gases...

and dont ask my source i cant remember if it was the seattle times, readers digest or muse...

I read in Newsweek that 1 kilogram of meat leaves the same carbon footprint as 3 hours of driving. *gasp*

I heard in Newsweek that one rhino footprint leaves the same footprint as three human ones

i leave different footprints depending on my shoes.